ALL PARTY PARLIAMENTARY WAR HERITAGE GROUP
MONDAY 8 JULY 2013 6.00 pm COMMITTEE ROOM 4
(MAIN COMMITTEE CORRIDOR) HOUSE OF LORDS
Minutes of the Meeting
| Apologies for absence:
Lord Boswell, Lord Eden, Julian Lewis MP, Ann McGuire MP, Madeleine Moon MP, Baroness Royall
|
Present:
Lord Faulkner of Worcester (Chairman), Lord Cope, Jeffrey Donaldson MP, Baroness Golding, Lord Roper, Lord Clark of Windermere, Graham Evans MP, Rob Flello MP, Lord Watson, Peter Doyle (Secretary) |
| In attendance:
Frank Baldwin (Battlefields Trust), Nathan Bennett (representing Ann Clwyd MP), Peter Burley (Battlefields Trust), Tony Cowan (BCMH), Lt Col. Kingsley Donaldson (NI 100 Committee), Hugh Hamilton (University Military Education Committee), Colin Kerr (CWGC), Maj-Gen. (retd) Mungo Melvin (BCMH), Brig. (retd) T.N. O’Brien, Tony Smith (GBG), David Tattersfield (WFA), Colin Wagstaff (WFA), Harvey Watson (Battlefields Trust), Liz Woodfield (CWGC), |
Lord Faulkner opened the meeting by welcoming Mr Colin Kerr, the Finance
Director at the Commonwealth War Graves Commission (CWGC), and Ms Liz
Woodfield, Head of Information Systems at the CWGC, and to invite them to talk
about the activities of the CWGC in the coming centenary years of the Great War
(2014–2018).
The CWGC and the Commemoration of the Great War Centenary: Mr Colin
Kerr and Ms Liz Woodfield (Commonweath War Graves Commission)
Mr Kerr opened the presentation. He explained that his talk would fall into four
sections, first discussing the large events that the CWGC would be involved with, and
the approaches taken by the Commission; secondly how to promote the work of the
CWGC during this period; thirdly, to talk about how success will be measured; and,
finally, to talk about UK, and what MPs could do to connect with local war graves in
their constituencies.
The CWGC role is to look after Commonwealth war dead from both world
wars. The majority of the graves are from the First World War, some 60% of the total,
with 40% coming from the Second World War. The Commission also looks after
other graves, such as those from the Boer War in South Africa.
Turning to the major events of Commemoration in 2014–2018, Mr Kerr
explained that this was the ambit of the Government, with a programme of events that
will focus on Mons (1914), Gallipoli (1915), Somme (1916), Jutland (1916),
Passchendaele (1917) and 100 Days (1918). These will be matched with others from
the Commonwealth countries, with Gallipoli (1915) a focus for Australia, Messines
(1917) for New Zealand, with the sinking of the SS Mendi in 1917 being a focus for
South Africa. The CWGC is involved with all of these, and is a participant in a
number of subgroups that are examining the activities associated with these events,
which are under the direction of the Department of Culture, Media and Sport
(DCMS).
Though the CWGC is not the originator of the events, the majority have a
focus on sites that are managed by the Commission; and in view of this the CWGC
have had an opportunity to influence debate over the commemorations. Important
examples of this were the suggestion by the Commission of the suitability of St
Symphorien Cemetery at Mons, a joint British and German site, and of sites in
Denmark where men from the Battle of Jutland are buried. At present, the CWGC is
working to suggest a suitable site for consideration of the 1918 Battle of 100 Days.
Mr Kerr went on to explain that there is another level of commemoration, an
informal one. Events are being planned by the various regimental associations, and
though it is difficult to judge how many people might attend, many of these will be at
CWGC sites. For the Commission, working with the associations is important in order
to help facilitate such events and make them memorable and appropriate. Events
associated with the Battle of the Somme in particular are likely to be large and
complex – and though the Thiepval Memorial is truly monumental in scale, there are
at least 100 other monuments across the Somme battlefield that could receive visitors.
Moving to the promotion of the commemorations, Mr Kerr explained that the
CWGC would be working to ensure that the iconic sites – such as Thiepval, the
Menin Gate, The Helles Memorial (Gallipoli) and the Doiran Memorial (Salonika) are
in perfect condition. In all thirty such sites have been identified as being ‘iconic’. In
addition, a total of 500 sites worldwide have been selected for special attention. At
these sites, there will be a focus on the history of what happened there – this is
important as the men who served are now all gone, with no one to explain them.
There will be information panels at sites as far afield as Tsingtao (now Qingdao,
China) to the Falkland Islands. The panels will include pictures of the actual events
that took place at the site, and explanations will be in local languages as well as
English. Each panel will also include a QR (Quick Response) code that will connect
smart phones with files that will have the words of men who served and who are
commemorated at each site, using letters held by the Imperial War Museum (IWM).
The CWGC is also responding to public demand to hear about ‘famous people’ buried
at each site, though this is not necessarily in tune with the principles of the
Commission.
The CWGC will also be developing six ‘Remembrance Trails’, which will
connect sites and events. The first will be ‘Mons to the Marne’, focusing on 1914;
there will be the ‘forgotten fronts of 1915’ as well as a consideration of the British
efforts at Gallipoli, and a trail to mark the first day of the Battle of the Somme in
1916. There will be links to hospitals and the British base at Etaples, and there will be
sites in the United Kingdom – important as there are some 13,000 separate sites in the
UK. The CWGC will use Google technology to link the sites and provide
geographical coordinates.
Mr Kerr went on to discuss how success will be measured by the CWGC
during the commemoration period. For him, success will be about people visiting
sites. He acknowledged that CWGC sites look beautiful but reflected that this cannot
be enough of a measure if people do not come. For example, at one site in Suez the
last visitor was four years ago. He asked what is success – more numbers going
through each site, re-engaging, and perhaps even shifting perceptions. Mr Kerr’s
focus is not the main sites that already receive many visitors, but the smaller and less
well visited sites, and those in more remote places, such as Macedonia.
Turning to the United Kingdom, Mr Kerr explained that it was important to reevaluate
decisions that had been made in the past in order to abandon some sites.
There are some 300,000 men buried in the UK; unfortunately some now lie under
developments and car parks, a result of decisions made in the 1960s. Today, the
CWGC is committed to reopening access to all of its sites across the UK, even if these
are components of large, derelict or overgrown municipal cemeteries. Mr Kerr assured
the Group that these sites would be regularly ‘strimmed’ for weeds, and that the
CWGC component would become an oasis in an otherwise abandoned site, with an
access pathway maintained. It is the view of the CWGC that wherever possible these
sites should maintained for visitors, with 80% of derelict sites opened to visitors. He
also explained that the CWGC had gained permission to use its characteristic green
CWGC signs to indicate the presence of war graves in local cemeteries in the UK.
Ms Woodfield went on to explain the intention of the CWGC to map each
headstone within the United Kingdom, so that each would be more easily found.
Many are scattered and difficult to locate. In view of this, each site will be digitally
mapped, and it is envisaged that the project will be able to place visitors to within 40
cm of a headstone. The CWGC has just commenced a three-month trial of the
technology, and it is hoped that within the next few years the coordinates will be
available for each site. She explained that it should be possible to map war graves to
parliamentary constituencies, though it is not an easy task as there is no suitable
software available. Notwithstanding this, the CWGC would be able to supply MPs
with digital maps based on the Ordnance Survey that will map out the constituency
and add the location of wargraves. It is probable also that spreadsheets will be
provided with the cemetery name and address, together with GPS coordinates and
locations. In addition to these data it will be possible to supply the number of CWGC
headstones in a given cemetery. Ms Woodfield explained that though the constituency
mapping will be easy, developing the spreadsheets would be more difficult.
Fortunately, there are dedicated volunteers, and it is hoped to have this material
available by October.
Mr Kerr went on to explain that within the United Kingdom, there are only
two large CWGC sites, at Brookwood and Lyness (Orkney). In big cities there are
often large blocks of CWGC graves within municipal cemeteries, but there are
scattered graves too. He then went on to suggest a number of activities that local MPs
could get involved with.
Mr Kerr suggested that a good place to start with be with the local war
memorials. These are already used by primary schools, and there is the opportunity to
work with the names on the memorial and link them to sites across the world, or even
at home, sites where these men and women are buried or commemorated. This would
provide great opportunities for a fuller understanding of the impact of the war, with
each headstone representing a microcosm of the war. In Mr Kerr’s view,
remembrance does not have to start and stop with ‘Poppy Day’; we should try and
reclaim the local CWGC sites.
Lord Faulkner thanked Mr Kerr and Ms Woodfield for their illuminating
contributions, and opened up the meeting for discussion.
Lord Clark thanked Mr Kerr and Ms Woodfield for their encouraging presentation.
Making reference to the Government’s decision to send two pupils from each school
to the Western Front, Lord Clark considered the effect on the majority who would not
go. In his view, they should be included in local initiatives, but the loss of some of the
soldiers’ records during the Second World War might be inhibiting to students
wishing to follow up local stories. In his view, the County Records might be a
valuable source of documents, and it might therefore be worthwhile to contact them.
Lord Clark also commented that it would be a big task to alert people to the existence
of isolated graves in village cemeteries. Mr Kerr thanked Lord Clark for his
comments. He agreed that the schools’ visits had some problems, and expressed
surprise that the Government had not suggested exploiting twinning mechanisms
between communities and schools in Europe.
Lord Cope explained that he is a Trustee of the War Memorials Trust (WMT). In his
view, it would be important to include the location of local war memorials on the
proposed constituency maps for MPs. However, he recognised that there would be
some difficulties. There are some 100,000 war memorials, with c. 60,000 are on a list
of UK inventory run by IWM. Unfortunately, due to the age of this inventory, it is not
interactive. A separate list is starting to be compiled by English Heritage and the
WMT, but at present this only records a tiny fraction of the total, just 3000 memorials.
Despite this Lord Cope explained that he was sure the WMT would be happy to help
the CWGC in supplying information to MPs.
Lord Faulkner considered the issue of constituency maps, and expressed the view
that he would be happy, on behalf of the All Party Group, to ensure that the
information compiled by the CWGC was distributed to MPs. Ms Woodfield was
grateful for the offer of assistance. Jeffery Donaldson MP agreed that distribution of
constituency-based information would be a valuable contribution.
Baroness Golding explained that she had sat as a representative of Government on
the CWGC. She remembered that UK graves are often very difficult to locate, and this
represented a significant problem. Mr Kerr agreed that cemetery access was an
important issue, and reiterated that CWGC was committed to ‘blazing a path’ through
overgrown sites to the site of the CWGC graves. He also noted that abandoned sites
will receive a green CWGC directional sign, and that the proposed GPS coding will
guide the people there. Baroness Golding asked also about the status of German war
graves in UK. Mr Kerr and Ms Woodfield explained that there is a huge German
national war cemetery in Cannock, and that other graves could be scattered. Whereas
the CWGC did not formerly record data relating to foreign nationals in their
cemeteries, this is now changing, and their details would be available online. Ms
Woodfield added that in addition to this new information, from next year, each
individual will have additional information from the original Graves Registration
Service records added to that already available online. This will be done with some
sensitivity and it is hoped that the project will be available by June 2014.
Lord Watson expressed his interest in obscure sites, and asked whether some of these
will be the ones to be highlighted. Mr Kerr confirmed that of the 500 sites selected,
some indeed would be the less commonly visited. Details will be on the CWGC
website. Lord Watson asked if there were any German sites within Germany. Mr
Kerr indicated that there were many WW2 sites in Germany under the care of the
CWGC, and some cemeteries with WW1 prisoner of war deaths.
Graham Evans MP was familiar with the work of the CWGC, and makes a point of
visiting cemeteries when he can. His concerns lie with the awareness of communities
and schools. In his view, MPs have an important role here, and he recommends that
information should be provided that makes it easy for MPs to promote such
awareness. In his experience, there are local authority officers who are responsible for
memorials, and it is often valuable for MPs to connect with these authorities to share
information, especially as authorities could raise the awareness. Mr Evans was happy
to help promote sites to the 650 MPs. Lord Faulkner expressed his gratitude for the
offer of help.
Jeffrey Donaldson MP took the chair, as there was a division in the Lords. He
invited the attendees to join the discussion.
Frank Baldwin (Battlefields Trust) was concerned with getting people over to the
battlefield. He explained that the Heritage Lottery Fund has set up a fund to get
people over to the sites, but that this is not well known. Jeffrey Donaldson MP
thanked him for the information, which he would seek to include in the information to
be distributed to MPs.
Major-General Mungo Melvin (BCMH) noted that some sites on the Western front
were still largely unvisited. In his view, there is a danger of being too narrowly
focussed in the commemoration of some events, and was happy to note that Scotland
and Ireland would have a focus on Loos (1915) and Messines (1917) respectively. He
was grateful, however, that the pivotal 100 Days battles of 1918 were included. Mr
Kerr agreed that some battles had a narrowly focussed public perception, with
interest in the Somme (1916) seemingly centred on its first day.
Hugh Hamilton (Military Education Committee) suggested that smartphones store
geographical coordinates, and that volunteers’ gravesites would include site
orientation photo data using smartphones for example. Ms Woodfield was grateful
for the suggestion.
David Tattersfield (WFA) pledged the support of the 6,000 strong membership of
the Western Front Association in helping to propagate the CWGC’s work and
initiatives. Mr Kerr thanked Mr Tattersfield for his support.
Lt-Colonel Kingsley Donaldson (NI 100 Committee) explained that he had
encountered a significant number of people who would be interested in volunteering
to assist with the commemorative events, but that they were unsure where to go. Mr
Kerr was aware that the concept of public volunteers, so successful during the
Olympics, was an important one. He noted that nearer the date, volunteers would be
needed, and that a database should be developed.
Lord Faulkner, returning from the division, took the Chair and thanked Mr Kerr and
Ms Downfield for their interesting and though-provoking contributions. With no
further business he closed the meeting.
The All Party Parliamentary War Heritage Group exists to promote and support the protection, conservation and interpretation of war graves, war memorials and battlefield sites.
Chairman: Lord Faulkner of Worcester
Vice-chairs: Lord Cope, Nigel Dodds MP, Lord Roper, Baroness Golding,
Treasurer: Jeffrey Donaldson MP